Sean ([info]jackslack) wrote,
@ 2009-04-20 15:40:00
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Barack Obama doesn't give a damn about the rule of law.
Just another bastard.

Glenn Greenwald will be fun to read tomorrow.

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[info]whiteadelphi
2009-04-20 06:36 am UTC (link)

"criminalizing legal advice after one administration is out of the office is a very bad precedent. ... I think it would be disaster to go back and try to prosecute a lawyer for giving legal advice that you disagreed with to a former president."

This is something I agree with. It is also political disaster to walk into an administration and attempt to destroy everything that has gone before you, especially if at least part of that administration is from the old regime. A new king never does everything all at once; he can't afford to, because he never does have absolute power. He needs the support of his advisors. The fact that Obama released those memos in the first place is a sign he's moving in the right direction. But he can't move too fast - the amount of ill will towards him in the administration could cripple his further decisions and ability to stay in the White House long enough to effect further change.

Obama caused enough of an uproar being elected in the first place; there's a lot of hate brewing towards him just because of his colour, and being elected was shake-up and precedent enough. He needs to tread carefully to ease his way in past all the resentment. (We're not hearing about it, but it's going to be there.)

Further, for Obama to very swiftly overturn much of the old presidency's work is for America's government to admit they made huge mistakes in Bush's regime. And I know that this is one of the points that many people believe should be made, but Bush was in so long because the majority of America voted him in. Stands to reason there's still a lot of people that agree with Bush's policies. It's not wise to slap a large portion of the voting public in the face.

In short: I believe you should give Obama time. Yes, I believe he's somewhat of a hypocrite; every politician is. But politics is a bastard to begin with, and hands are tied more by bureacracy and further politicking to a crazy extent. I think it's perfectly okay to be angry and disagree with his politics, but I think you're being a bit harsh in taking every bit of news and declaring Obama is just another bastard.

...this is just my opinion, Sean, and I've held off saying something for a long time because hell, I thought I'd never argue about politics, especially in another country. It's interesting that I (the bitter one) am much more forgiving this time around than you are. But it may be that in a few more months I'll be standing exactly where you are and saying, "Yeah! What he said!" And it may also be you're working with a little more information than I am, in which case I'd love to hear it so I can consider it carefully also.

But I'll give Obama just a little more rope, methinks. That's my stand. I'm not expecting you to agree with it; I just felt the need to express my opinion. (I still love you either way.)

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[info]jackslack
2009-04-20 06:58 am UTC (link)
The thing is, they said it.

They could easily have had time, and I'd have been all for it. They could have just ducked the question and noted, "It's too early to call on that." They'd have been right, even. Call for a non-prosecuting investigation to properly answer all the questions. Delay. Wait for a second term.

All of these I could have understood. While I'd have hoped for nothing short of fiery vengeance delivered by winged seraphim, I recognise this is neither likely nor practical. At the beginning of a second term, with no worries of re-election, there'd have been more chance.

But I think the real reason I'm so bitter? Is that I really believed in America. I did. I believed that there was a core of humanity to that country perhaps unique to it and certainly exemplified to it. The kind of country that could look down the barrel of power and insist that its citizens have the right to keep the very guns that could throw out the very government who gave them that right, who could enshrine the right to criticize the government who gave them that right, who could swear that all men, created equal, had the right to pursue happiness.

And I could overlook Bush's horrible abdication of these principles. He's a lone case. But I can't overlook the next administration turning a blind eye to it. This isn't ancient history, it's the day before this one. America can either admits its mistakes, correct them, or excuse them. In a way, it would be less infuriating if he'd just decided not to release them – That would confirm him as just another bastard, standard issue. But despite my words above, he's not just another bastard.

He's the sort of bastard who can release and (presumably) read documents discussing the torture of men for days on end, and then say that nobody should face punishment for it. That's a unique sort of bastard.

To be shorter, I'm angry because I this is my guy. I expected no better of Bush, whom I saw as a puppet of a bunch of war criminals. I don't get as angry about Rudd, even though I seriously want to leave Australia because of him. (He is to my mind not one iota better than Howard anymore.) Sure, Labour is my party, but he was never my guy. I voted against Howard, not for Rudd.

But I'd have voted for Obama. I believed. I actually did think he could change things for the better. I fell for the PR machine even as I claimed not to.

And he is, in the end, yet another bastard.

And I'm pissed as a result.

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[info]whiteadelphi
2009-04-20 05:33 pm UTC (link)
Did he ever say nobody SHOULD face punishment for it? Just be careful you're not reading too much into it, is all.

I think we're both approaching the issue from different angles, and it may be frankly that where you believed in America originally, I didn't believe in it at all, and that's why I have more rope to give to Obama, because he's the first time I've ever looked up at America with an inkling of interest and respect. Who knows? I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Bar one point:

I could overlook Bush's horrible abdication of these principles. He's a lone case. But I can't overlook the next administration turning a blind eye to it.

So you can overlook Bush's administration, but you can't forgive Obama's administration for also overlooking it? ...what? Am I missing some important point here that makes this a wise distinction as opposed to absolute hypocrisy? Please explain further. "He's a lone case" doesn't cut it.

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[info]jackslack
2009-04-20 07:25 pm UTC (link)
If he's saying anyone should be prosecuted, he's hiding it well. The CIA shouldn't be prosecuted, Bush officials shouldn't... who then?

And he's a "lone case", as far as America goes. It's like Nixon. Sure, he was a reprehensible monster (not quite as bad as Bush, but terrible none the less) but the next administration... well, pardoned him.

OK, we've been here before. But that's exactly IT. We shouldn't be. Bush and Cheney should be being hauled up on charges, not idly forgotten about. It's not even a pardon we're talking about here -- It's a casual, "Meh" in their direction.

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[info]whiteadelphi
2009-04-21 05:15 am UTC (link)
I don't think he's said anyone should OR shouldn't be prosecuted. There are some things one probably can't get away with saying in public. This is what I mean about time. I mean, I do agree with you on this: Bush should be given more than a "meh" reaction, but how one goes about doing that without doing further damage could be complicated. Who gets prosecuted? Bush; the people who advised him; the people in administration who agreed with him; the people who carried it out? It's also very bad precedent to start one's presidential term with a witch-hunt.

I'm not saying, by the way, that I think Obama is a good man and will deal with all this the right way. He may be every bit the bastard you say. What I am saying is that I'm giving Obama his first year in office before I make a judgment on whether or not he's a good president. It's the shittiest job in America ;p I'd hate to have it.

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[info]jackslack
2009-04-21 05:17 am UTC (link)
That is true. I'm reminded of one president, forget which, who noted: "The two happiest days of my life were the day I accepted the office of president, and the day I gave it away."

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